tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35419020.post7261207408315361958..comments2023-06-14T08:35:24.316-05:00Comments on Moments of Recognition: YL cont'dJoshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00296019279713284579noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35419020.post-49282076610737123022008-01-10T12:59:00.000-05:002008-01-10T12:59:00.000-05:00L-$,no problem blogging on this. it is important s...L-$,<BR/><BR/>no problem blogging on this. it is important stuff, especially if it is getting picked up by some bigger magazines.<BR/><BR/>it seems like the difference between covenant and contractual might be understood this way (and this is an oversimplification, both of which are characteristic of more reformed traditions, i.e. usually calvinist, protestant traditions, which i'm no expert on, and don't often agree with...)<BR/><BR/>Contractual: that the action of Jesus on the cross made the contract between God and humanity for death and eternal punishment because of sin null and void. the "relationship" between God and people is one understood in terms of contracts, where God had a contract with humanity for life, love, and unity with God, humanity renegged on the conditions through Adam and Eve eating the fruit of the tree, so the punishment for breaking the contract was death. Jesus repaired the contract through his death on the cross, making the contractual relationship able to be right again.<BR/><BR/>Covenant: God has chosen and elected certain groups of people to be in relationship with since the beginning of time, and the gift of salvation comes through Jesus' death on the cross taking the punishment of sin providing the means of salvation, but without any of the contractual metaphors. <BR/><BR/>Sin in the contractual setting must be rectified first in order for any type of relationship to exist. In the covenantal setting God has chosen certain folks for all time to be in relationship with, and while Jesus' death on the cross provides the means for such a relationship, repentance can happen without a full awareness of sin. And in the covenantal relationship, Jesus' death provides the means for salvation, but God's promise to save is the starting point from the OT. <BR/><BR/>Big difference: sin in the contractual setting works like a logic problem, if humans do not want to be separated from God because of their actions, then there needs to be a solution, and Jesus is it. sin in covenantal setting separates those from God who are not of the covenant, but for those who are, the promise of God's salvation and hope for them could never have been in question. <BR/><BR/><BR/>That is a lot, and like i said, i'm no reformed theologian so, no promises on the all of that being exact. the Capernaum stuff is just hard for me. i've not been to the camps, so i don't know how they work there...but it would seem to pose some questions about the nature of the gospel: that is, is it a set of propositions to give mental assent to...and if so, what about those who may be unable to give mental assent to those propositions?<BR/><BR/>keep the good stuff coming Lauren! i'm no expert on this...just thought it was really interesting, and was wondering if anyone had heard of this. YL has usually stayed out of the fray in this stuff, but when some big Christian mags pick it up, i thought it might be interesting to talk about. no hatin' on this side, just some thoughts!Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00296019279713284579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35419020.post-66954036788105063732008-01-10T11:12:00.000-05:002008-01-10T11:12:00.000-05:00First off, thanks for blogging about this topic - ...First off, thanks for blogging about this topic - like I said before, I had no idea that there was even an issue about this going on.<BR/><BR/>I do agree with your comment to the previous post that the five minute message at the end of club that is often communicated is about Jesus and not really God the Father or God the Holy Spirit - we don't touch on the Trinity often, if at all, within the club talks.<BR/><BR/>But I guess am missing the whole theological argument or disagreement that is going on here - I don't know how you present the Gospel without mentioning our need for a relationship with God and that sin creates that separation, because then the Gospel and the cross doesn't make any sense. I don't know how you understand God's love without ultimately knowing that?<BR/><BR/>But I also agree that you need to tailor the talks as much as you can to your audience - like you and your team did for your middle school kids, or like the lady did for her Capernaum kids (which by the way, I would be really interested to know how the message is presented to Capernaum kids at camp and if it follows the same format that other camp speakers use.) If you are in relationship with your kids, then you know them and how the talk should be presented and tailored to them.<BR/><BR/>For my own knowledge, would you mind explaining the difference between contractual and convenant relationship? I don't get the difference - both words on their own mean the same thing to me, so I know I'm missing something here :). Thanks Josh!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17336783637792925807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35419020.post-19819961382823513912008-01-10T10:25:00.000-05:002008-01-10T10:25:00.000-05:00Chris, i think that part of the sticking point was...Chris, i think that part of the sticking point was how sin is understood, whether contractually or in a covenant type relationship, which i think you're right in pointing out, but i think those differences would and did lead to a different method of presentation, which is what also led to McSwain's firing.Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00296019279713284579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35419020.post-79077636330819280492008-01-10T09:30:00.000-05:002008-01-10T09:30:00.000-05:00The main issue was not the order in which the gosp...The main issue was not the order in which the gospel was presented, but the thoughts Jeff had about sin & separation from God. In Jeff's writing, he does not acknowledge that separation (at least as far as I can tell), and that was the sticking point.Chris Stormshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536387659986730646noreply@blogger.com